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« `Tis The Season... | Main | "YOU'RE THE ONE WHO'S CRAZY..." »

October 29, 2019

Comments

Ray

It begs the question: is there a scene if there is not a physical “scene”? If there is no common uniform or “rules” anymore? Maybe a “virtual” scene Is better or worse, but certainly different.

Hardcore For Life

You just don't get it. Of course it doesn't operate in the same environs, it's too expensive to, and it's been like that for literally decades.

My point which you missed is these books document only a couple of years of NYHC yet many think that's when it really existed when bullshit, and none of you point out that or do it enough. Yes, this was the era these three photographers were part of, but they and many others like you pass it off like this was the last time hardcore was vital when it most certainly was not. And I distinctly remember people of their/your generation turning your noses up at hardcore 1986 on especially 1990-92. I never saw your faces ANYWHERE back then and I've nothing to gain by that. I resent these people popping up to tell everyone who didn't move on what's what - you don't get to do that without being called out. I don't care about your nostalgia or trips down memory lane when you dismissed generations including mine after you.

At first, in the early years, hardcore was seen as a thing you're into when you're young until you "grow up" and move on into the "adult world." But over time it grew into a movement and community that became something for life. Most of your generation don't get that or care so I don't care about your reminiscences about a time, music, and culture you ditched for greener pastures and/or cuz you felt you had to "mature." Just like you didn't care that we were as young, alert, angry, and expressive as you all were thus neither better nor worse. I'll never claim we were (better or worse) like your generation constantly does. You have no humility whatsoever. Hardcore died by 198X to all of you save the lifers I need not name (cuz everyone knows who they are) when we say it never died or will die, and I'm not talking just the music.

I didn't care back then cuz you were all ancient history to me for your attitudes towards my generation but now I'm annoyed. You don't get to come back 30-35 years later like you never left and when you ditched and badmouthed it when you were all twentysomethings (why it grew stronger as time went on.)

That said, I wish no ill will on anyone including you. Just stop coopting something you ditched in 1983/84/85 is all.


Alex in NYC

Okay, let’s unpack this…

“You just don't get it.” – As expected, we start with the antagonism.

“Of course it doesn't operate in the same environs, it's too expensive to, and it's been like that for literally decades.”

– I agree with all of this.

“My point which you missed is these books document only a couple of years of NYHC yet many think that's when it really existed when bullshit, and none of you point out that or do it enough.”

– I don’t think it’s fair to blame the photographers in question for only being able to capture one particular era. That’s just when they happened to have their cameras out. Who can blame them for wanting to share their pics from their respective eras? I don’t think any of the photographers I’ve highlighted over the years suggest that their capturing of the scene was the ONLY period that mattered.

“Yes, this was the era these three photographers were part of, but they and many others like you pass it off like this was the last time hardcore was vital when it most certainly was not.”

– Again, I don’t think they’re asserting that, nor am I trying to reinforce that point, but I’ll let them defend themselves.

“And I distinctly remember people of their/your generation turning your noses up at hardcore 1986 on especially 1990-92.”

– Every generation has had its critics. To your point, I certainly took my attention elsewhere. That doesn’t mean I think hardcore stopped or died or ceased being important.

“I never saw your faces ANYWHERE back then and I've nothing to gain by that.

– As mentioned in an earlier post on the subject, while I have a pronounced affinity for this particular era of hardcore, by absolutely no means would I ever assert to be a member of the NYHC scene. I was an avid follower of certain bands and attended many pertinent shows, I would never and have never claimed to be a bona fide member of any particular scene.

“I resent these people popping up to tell everyone who didn't move on what's what - you don't get to do that without being called out.”

– I don’t speak for anyone other than myself, nor do I claim to be an authority. This blog just happens to reflect my own observations. It’s not a history book. There was a time when I considered hardcore dead because I’d lost interest in the genre as the bands who’d initially started out started to phase out or disband. In later years, I copped to being wrong about all that, as younger friends of mine turned me onto to newer bands on that scene. That’s cool and I respect that. Hardcore is by no means dead, but this particular era of it is over. That’s not an opinion, that’s just a fact.

“I don't care about your nostalgia or trips down memory lane when you dismissed generations including mine after you.”

– See above answer, but if you don’t care about my perceptions – why do you keep coming back? Not picking a fight, just asking.

“At first, in the early years, hardcore was seen as a thing you're into when you're young until you "grow up" and move on into the "adult world." But over time it grew into a movement and community that became something for life.”

– At its inception, I don’t think people were really planning on its staying power… or planning anything at all. It was simply organic and grew into a movement.

“Most of your generation don't get that or care so I don't care about your reminiscences about a time, music, and culture you ditched for greener pastures and/or cuz you felt you had to "mature."

--- Well, I don’t like to make sweeping generalizations about my generation, so I can’t speak to that, but in my own experience, there was never a point wherein I decided I needed to mature. Were that the case, why would I still be preoccupied with so much of this stuff? But again, if you don’t care about my take on this stuff – why do you keep coming back?

“Just like you didn't care that we were as young, alert, angry, and expressive as you all were thus neither better nor worse.”

– I don’t know enough about your particular era to make any bold assessments as to the quality of the sentiment. One doesn’t negate the other. I don’t have enough information or experience about your era of hardcore to have a credible opinion. Start your own blog, write about it and tell YOUR story.

“I'll never claim we were (better or worse) like your generation constantly does.”

– Again, I am wary of sweeping generalizations like this, but each generation perceives its predecessor with a degree of derision and suspicion. That’s just the way it works. Again, write your story and set the record straight. I’m not kidding.

“You have no humility whatsoever.”

– Me or my generation? If the former, I’d suggest that’s unfair. We’ve never met. I don’t claim to be any expert about anything, so I think that’s offside. If you’re talking about my generation – as in the generation of hardcore punk I continue to lionize – I don’t speak for them. Maybe it’s because there’s more ephemeral content left behind that it’s easier to celebrate. Maybe your generation just isn’t vocal enough. Again – get out there and tell the story.

“Hardcore died by 198X to all of you save the lifers I need not name (cuz everyone knows who they are) when we say it never died or will die, and I'm not talking just the music”

– I feel like we covered this above. I don’t decry anyone who has devoted their life to hardcore. I respect that. I don’t claim to be one of them. That doesn’t negate my affinity for hardcore.

“I didn't care back then cuz you were all ancient history to me for your attitudes towards my generation but now I'm annoyed.”

– Again, this is generational disdain, and its symptomatic of a dynamic that extends way beyond hardcore punk.

“You don't get to come back 30-35 years later like you never left and when you ditched and badmouthed it when you were all twentysomethings (why it grew stronger as time went on.) That said, I wish no ill will on anyone including you. Just stop coopting something you ditched in 1983/84/85 is all.”

--- Well, again, a few things here: I didn’t “come back” to anything. My appreciation for hardcore never diminished, I just got into other things and didn’t follow the trajectory of hardcore. I don’t think I’m guilty of “badmouthing” anything. Whenever I’m talking about hardcore here, it’s usually just reflective of the aspects of the scene/movement that spoke to me or that I was involved with. I make no grand pronouncements about it. This all said, I want to agree with you about something --- I, too, get bent out of shape when I see people coopting aspects of genuine subculture they’ve only dabbled in (at best) as dilettantes. I expect that’s how you perceive my involvement, and perhaps there’s some truth to that. I probably was not as fully invested as yourself during your era, but I don’t claim to be. For me, I was captivated by the sentiment, the expression, the anger and the energy, but didn’t completely commit. That’s probably the fundamental difference between us. I was informed by, but stopped short of redefining myself by it.

Anyway, enough psychobabble. Thanks for weighing in. I do believe we can reach an understanding on these points. Also, book-wise, I believe Tony Rettman’s book on NYHC gives a very fair shake to latter generations. Check that out if you haven’t already.

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